MusicaSacra Forum

Yes. Stuff like this makes me cranky. Not that crankiness is any positive or negative indicator of doctrinal correctness.

If it's just a gig, it's not worship. But if it's just a gig for the Protestants, why would it not be "just a gig" for the Church? Wouldn't that obligate one to fulfill one's Sunday obligation somewhere other than "on the job"?

More importantly: if a pin is manufactured in Geneva or Augsburg, may angels dance on the head of it, and if so, how many?

It's certainly possible to pray with them, so long as there's nothing objectionable to a Catholic, but the differences in religion will make it difficult. For instance, with my non-Catholic family, about the only thing in common would be the Our Father.

It's not possible to worship with them in their religion as that would be a compromise to our Catholic faith. One can't go into a protestant church and worship God in a pleasing manner as one would be doing so in a false religion.

As for those who think it's permissible to work for non-Catholic churches, perhaps they never had the Faith at all.

(Edit: The last sentence isn't truly meant to be an attack (nor would I judge people across line in such a general manner), but more a way of saying that people should make proper arguments instead of attacking the faith of others with insults. You can see how silly it is (even if it might garner a laugh from those who agree with the poster).

I was, within two weeks:

-fired from a Catholic parish for asking them to listen to BXVI
-given a cake by my Protestant brothers, with whom I worked for six years during my "lack of faith," as Curt would suggest
-married at the parish I was fired from

(same parish I grew up and received all sacraments in)

Curt: please be prudent with your words.

I was literally fired for being a Rome-ist amongst Catholics, while my Protestant brethren showed other families the door for the same complaint. While my love of BXVI got me ousted from a Catholic parish, it kept me employed amongst Calvanists.

Dearest Curt:
WITH WHOM SHALL I PRAY?!!!

Be careful only to sing God Bless America and assorted patriotic prayer-songs among fellow Catholics, never with non-Catholics. In mixed company, limit ourselves to purely secular patriotic songs.

If you can only work with/for Catholics, what other jobs are we allowed to work outside of the church?

These days I am lucky to be at a few Catholic parishes. I took a big paycut to do so, actually, so there's my own testimony as to the matter of money. However, if I were to lose my current employment, I don't see the problem of earning my grocery money from fellow Christians while I search for Catholic churches. It doesn't seem any more immoral than going to work at the local retail store which is neither Catholic nor Christian at all. In many cases, quite the opposite.

When I played at a Jewish synagogue for high holy days this past year, was that a testimony to my lack of faith in Christ and his resurrection? When I am payed to perform music in a secular concert or club setting, why is that different than being payed to perform music in a community which desires to know Christ and worship God?

I have also been led to believe, by pretty specific statements, that my own faith was seen as a great testimony to the Protestants with whom I worked. Some families left, but others grew in their respect of the Catholic faith as they realized that we are not worshipping any golden cows. I wouldn't suggest that anyone would convert because of my time there, but I do not hesitate to say that many souls were left more open/understanding of the faith than if I had denied their employment and fellowship on grounds of "No thanks, you aren't the right kind of church." Did I believe that they possessed the fullness of faith? Not at all, and that is why I would still attend Holy Mass every week, along with my time working at the Protestant parish.

My desire is to work for the Catholic church. I currently do. If I could not, would it be better to work at a grocery store or at a Protestant church? I don't know, but I don't think that either is reflective of my dedication to the faith. Either way, I can still attend Holy Mass, and either way, I get a paycheck.

We must be careful not to become to insular/"inbred" in the church. There are some in Orthodox Judaism who do not wish to proselytize and won't accept converts. It's just a cultural thing. We're Jewish and we hang with other Jewish folk. If you're not Jewish, you can't be Jewish, and we won't be stopping around your parts if you are not Jewish. It's just us and that's it.

Obviously the church always accepts converts, but should its members be limited in the sense of participation in the larger world? If this participation leads to immoral activity, obviously there is a problem. However, playing a few hymns and acknowledging Jesus Christ as the Son of God is hardly immoral. I never had to denounce my faith, never had to denounce the hierarchy or the Holy Father, never had to denounce the True Presence (in the Catholic Mass), and never had to miss Holy Mass during my time with the Protestants. This would all be equally true if I were teaching at a public school nearby, except I might have to teach kids about condoms and birth control. I guess that's better than praising God with fellow believers, although their theology and ecclesiology are partially lacking in truth.

P.S., I've never said anything about your faith or you personally. I do not understand how my previous post was imprudent. Protestants have, in past experiences, often been just as good or even better examples of Christian life than Catholics. That's not always true, and I'm lucky to do all of my work in Catholic churches these days, but there's no reason to say that someone never truly had the faith while earning a living praising God in a church which lacked in some way, and during other parts of the day managed to attend Holy Mass, receive Communion, receive sacramental Confession during the week, etc.

Praise God in song or bag groceries... I know my preference.

As far as praising God in a Protestant or Catholic setting, that's a silly question.

And as far as how accepting a paycheck from Christians and attending Mass every week makes one lacking in the faith, its beyond my comprehension. I was a practicing Catholic the whole time.

Ryand

The teaching of the Chuch is NOT what you say. You deceive yourself and others to say so.

Did you read the document I included above? If so, with which part do you disagree? Also, personal discernment or one's own conscience cannot dictate a different outcome from what is presented in the argument. The Church is very clear on what it means to hold fidelity to the faith.

When you say:

"I have also been led to believe, by pretty specific statements, that my own faith was seen as a great testimony to the Protestants with whom I worked. Some families left, but others grew in their respect of the Catholic faith as they realized that we are not worshipping any golden cows. I wouldn't suggest that anyone would convert because of my time there, but I do not hesitate to say that many souls were left more open/understanding of the faith than if I had denied their employment and fellowship on grounds of "No thanks, you aren't the right kind of church." Did I believe that they possessed the fullness of faith? Not at all, and that is why I would still attend Holy Mass every week, along with my time working at the Protestant parish."

you give credibility to NOT being Catholic as though it is just fine or on the same level especially because you profess to be so yourself.

You also said:

However, playing a few hymns and acknowledging Jesus Christ as the Son of God is hardly immoral.

Hmmm... Demons acknowledge JC as the Son of God, but we don't participate with them!

Dear Francis,

Could you please restrain yourself from making accusations about people "deceiving themselves and others"? It's possible you may be making an error about what ryand's views are.

Do you think that the theologian you cite would dish out such insults on a public forum, based on so little as the writings above?

chonak

It's possible, but not likely. The Church does not change it's doctrine toward participation in non-Catholic religions by Catholics.

Why are you so quick to attack my opinions? I am not making acusations... I am simply stating what I think to be true, just as you do.

I will simply revise my statement by saying:

I (and many) believe you deceive yourself and others... and having been a part of the "ecumenical movement" for many years, I also speak from direct experience as I was also deceived myself into practicing those things against communicatio in sacris.

Spirit-filled hearts of love don't always smell pretty. sometimes it challenges to the core. Just because a pope participates in an ecumenical service doesn't make it right or acceptable. Popes are also human and are capable of making mistakes. Popes also commit sins... do we follow their actions in those things also?

Also, there are two things discussed in the article I posted above. Catholics participating in non-Catholic religions, and then there is the more blurry participation of praying with non-Catholics... they are two completely different things.

Now, that said, the document says, if I recall, that praying together is to be encouraged, but Catholics can't participate in a way that signals assent in error--there's where the discussion is. True, if you refuse to participate with other Christians, you will never hear Protestant error, but you will hear error by Catholics--and you will be falling into the temptation of lack of charity toward your separated brethren. The document certainly never says, "Any time you pray with a Protestant, you are a sinner." And that seems to be what some here maintain.

I would like to say it is not easy. But an atttitude of love, of not seeking to replay the Diet of Worms every time you get together, of openness, in prayer, are needed. The pro-life movement has blown away so much rancor and hatred that we must pray for ever further cooperation.

That Catechism (820-822) says that unity is beyond human powers, but that among things that "are required" are (1) a permanent renewal of the Church in greater fidelity to her vocation; (2) prayer in common, and (3) faternal knowledge of each other. As committed as everyone on this list is to the unique beauty of the Catholic Mass properly done, we should also be committed to love our separated brethren.

And we should all read and reread Ut Unim Sint.

http://www.vatican.va/edocs/ENG0221/_INDEX.HTM